Clutch questions

Erik S · Post by **Erik S** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:30 pm

When removing the clutch from my '65 CA95, I noticed within the basket there are two thick discs and two thin discs, see pic. Reading here about clutches and the service manual there should be only one thick and three thin. The RS cover appears to have never been removed, as evidenced by the screw heads weren't chewed up.
Another question- Should the kickstart just turn and do nothing, as in it just spin free? This happens with the clutch in or out. I did notice after buying this machine that the clutch lever was as if it froze open. Like it was stored leaning on the lever against a wall or barn. Should I be concerned?

ByTheLake · Post by **ByTheLake** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Interesting - I hope the veterans will comment on this. Until then, here are my less qualified thoughts, at no charge whatsoever.

I've never seen friction plates like the middle ones in your picture. My 4 original friction plates were identical and were all made of some composite, not a steel base. The new set of plates came with 5 friction plates, 1 different than the other 4. The new friction plates were thinner but had a steel base. I'm out of town, otherwise I'd include a pic of my old plates.

Regarding your kick starter, it certainly shouldn't "do nothing" - imagine what a disappointing feature that would be! It does require the clutch to be installed and operational, since the large gear on the clutch basket is what turns the crankshaft during a kick start . Given your description of the clutch lever being "froze open", I'm suspecting that there are other issues that need attention. Perhaps a frozen cable? If the clutch is compressed, the kick starter will only spin the clutch's center hub.

Regarding your question "should I be concerned?" - my answer would be "only if you want to ride the motorcycle." Joking aside, you'll certainly want smooth clutch operation, so you'll want to be sure the cable is working and lubricated, along with the clutch actuator which is mounted inside the left engine cover, which is often neglected.

Erik S · Post by **Erik S** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:40 pm

With the RS cover removed and the clutch removed will the kickstart turn the trans. shaft, in neutral?

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:05 pm

Yes, the kick starter gear is internal and engages the transmission.
The clutch has been buggered. The mix of clutch plates is...basically..crap.

Order a new set of 5 plates and check to make sure the clutch parts are complete (get a blow up of the clutch assembly)

These are cool bikes, but 20 years ago they had little or no value. Many were fooled with by rouge mechanics (trying to be nice here...) whom had nothing to loose if they goofed up the engine.

You found the right place for help in this forum.

ByTheLake · Post by **ByTheLake** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:15 pm

Erik S wrote:With the RS cover removed and the clutch removed will the kickstart turn the trans. shaft, in neutral?

The kick starter will turn the secondary transmission shaft's first gear, which turns the primary transmission shaft's first gear, spinning the primary transmission shaft and the inner clutch basket. If the clutch assembly is installed, the compressed clutch will turn the outer clutch basket, turning the crankshaft.

If the clutch is removed, the kick starter will only turn the pair of transmission shafts. The crankshaft will not turn.

I'm with Spokes on this one. A new set of friction plates would be good. I'd strongly recommend removing the left side engine case so that the clutch actuator (pictured below) can be cleaned, inspected and re-lubricated. That part is commonly neglected.

Erik S · Post by **Erik S** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:06 pm

The LS engine cover is removed and will be cleaned. The frozen clutch cable is a goner. The clutch rod (one end square, the other rounded) is out. Before I clean the LS inner case of years of chain grease, I'll put it back in, keeping the cleaner out of the inner case.
Crapola, when I turn the kickstart, in neutral, it just turns freely, not turning the trans. shaft. I really didn't want to split the engine case. Could something be broken in there? Nothing metallic came out with the oil when it drained. The magnet was clear, with nothing feeling like metal pieces. The service manual shows a breakdown of the kickstart mechanism. Are pieces floating stuck in old oil? Could the mechanism be stuck and released with heat and a running engine?
I'll sure get new clutch friction discs, are the plates original looking? It does seem unusual the friction discs look to be filed at the edges where it fits to the basket. The square edges on the outside.
The bike is almost disassembled ready to be cleaned, greased and adjusted. I'm very good with mechanical devices and read service manuals to the tee.
If I have to split the engine cases this becomes something too expensive and time consuming...
Sorry if I seem to be bummed...
At least I had the first tomato of the season as part of dinner this evening. Tastes like summer.

ByTheLake · Post by **ByTheLake** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:33 pm

Erik S wrote:Crapola, when I turn the kickstart, in neutral, it just turns freely, not turning the trans. shaft. I really didn't want to split the engine case.

That's a thought. There's a pawl on the ratchet that needs to engage a gear. I've not encountered a stuck pawl before, but I suppose it's a possibility. I think it was Spokes that described his method of filling a crankcase completely with oil when he encounters an old engine, just to circulate oil to help flush out crud. Perhaps that could free the pawl if it's stuck with a little corrosion.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:05 pm

The clutch plates are a mixed bunch. The ones with the keystone pad design is original. The long pad types are unknown, maybe racing clutch plates.

The kickstarter rachet gear, inside the engine, is known to break. I had a broken one in the same engine a few years ago. You could have a loose part in the crankcase or maybe it is hanging partially cracked.

Breaking apart these engines is more sloppy than difficult. Just get a new gasket kit, the replacement kickstart shaft (common on eBay) and seals. If the motor is in good shape otherwise, just put it back together.

Or start the motor and take your chances. Don't be bummed..it's the journey (IMO)

Erik S · Post by **Erik S** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:05 am

What I may do is fill this crankcase with cheap oil and turn the engine via the bolt on the points cam. The engine is off the bike. The pawl may just be stuck as bythelake said. Does anybody think I might should use some solvent in the oil? Or just bite the bullet and diassemble the engine. Of course that's a retorical question. If a PO messed with the clutch, what other surprises are in store? Thanks for all the help so far.

Larzfromarz · Post by **Larzfromarz** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:46 am

For my two pence, I'd not be afraid to split the case. At the very least you will have some confidence going forward that the internals are doing what they are supposed to, where they are supposed to. Since my x-ray vision went on the fritz even aluminum is hard to see through...

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:31 pm

Since the engine is off the bike, maybe hold it upside down and shake it. Maybe you can hear something rattling around. It's your call regarding opening up the case. I would open the case and replace the kick start rachet assembly with a used eBay one.

Since the kickstart is busted and the clutch is goofed up, it might be wise to look inside the engine. IMO

Erik S · Post by **Erik S** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:03 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen of this fine forum, glorious forum... enough buttering... Would any kind folk have four of the thin clutch friction plates, used, but good, for sale? I've looked through Ebay and find only parts from Thailand (shipping $$$) or a used complete assy., not bad for $35.00, but can I trust it to be good? Or new that are extras? I believe I'd be more inclined to trust someone from this forum than a shot in the dark.

As always thanks for the info and comraderie.

kartgreen · Post by **kartgreen** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:40 am

Erik , pm me your address and I'll send you a set of friction plates .

kartgreen · Post by **kartgreen** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:19 am

Erik, put the plates in the mail tuesday, you should see them in a few days

Erik S · Post by **Erik S** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:24 am

Kart green,
Thanks so much. I'll return to you postage and whatever you want for the discs. I sent you a PM seeing if you want the turn signals and related hardware. Whatever I'll include some goodies I'be saved through the years.