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Unread 07-08-2008, 04:57 PM
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You have spent lots of hard earned money and TONS of time restoring your classic car so why not spend a little and protect your valves and cams? That's what the ZDDP debate comes down to. It's not even a debate. Old fuel was SO much better than the thinned down alcohol crap we are buying today. You need to prime your fuel and oil with a little ZDDP additive so that you restore some of the lubrication qualities.

I have more information and more links than you might care to read on my thread: My Thread & Link on ZDDP
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Unread 07-08-2008, 05:05 PM
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Now I would like to specifically talk about MGB fuel and oil. I have been told of a Castrol oil specifically made for older engines. I haven't seen it yet but I'm looking.

Here is someone who is concearned about the British flat tappet engines that are being ruined by modern lightweight oil. I borrowed this from National Association of Antique Auto Clubs of Canada - Old outdated annoying website but has some good info deep inside. I'll be looking into the possibility of a Redline oil that covers all the bases of protecting a classic engine.

I quoted the most important part to display:

Quote:
Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam): “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.

Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.

For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.

If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.
National Association of Antique Auto Clubs of Canada - Old outdated annoying website but has some good info out there. =]
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Unread 07-08-2008, 05:07 PM
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The above info is a relief to me as I poured some good ol 20-50w into the newly rebuilt MGB engine after the rebuild. Now to continue on in our reading the author tells a little bit more about breaking in engines and some suggestions on what oil is proper.

Quote:
Now for the latest report:

#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.

#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.

#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.



#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.

#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

#6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.

New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.
I pretty much agree with everything said here. I wouldn't post it if I thought differently. Redline oil is top of the line as well as Royal Purple. I have seen independent proof showing how bad ass Royal Purple is and I'll be sticking with that brand in my more expensive engines. Redline is very popular with a lot of racers and I don't argue against it at all.
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Unread 07-08-2008, 05:14 PM
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Here is some authentic MGB motor conversation from the Moss Motors website. Obviously it's about breaking in the little engines and the oil to use during that process. It's a good read. The best thing about it is that it's short! Nice and short...

http://www.mossmotors.com/forum/foru...ead/13275.aspx

If you read into each of these threads you will notice that the name Valvoline is brought up more than a couple times. I'll have to read the back of one of their oil bottles when I go to the shop again.

http://www.mgexperience.net/archive/castro...y_to_cam/461680

Both links are good reading and MG and MGB specific. Two Thumbs Up!
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